Pope on homosexuals: 'Who am I to judge?'
Pope Francis listens
to a question from a journalist on his Monday flight back to Rome. The pope
answered questions from 21 journalists over a period of 80 minutes on his
return from Brazil. (CNS/pool via Reuters)
One way to tell that a pope is feeling good at the end of a long
trip is when he comes back to the press compartment and does precisely what he
said at the beginning of the journey he won't, or can't, do.
On the
way to Rio de Janeiro on July 22, Pope Francis told reporters, "I don't
give interviews." But at the end of his seven-day tour de force in
Brazil, not only did the pope give an interview, he gave a whopper of one.
He took questions from reporters traveling aboard the papal plane
for a full hour and 21 minutes with no filters or limits and nothing off the
record. Francis stood for the entire time, answering without notes and never
refusing to take a question. The final query was an especially delicate
one about charges of homosexual conduct against his recently appointed delegate
to reform the Vatican bank, and not only did Francis answer, but he actually
thanked reporters for the question.
On background, officials said the decision to hold the news
conference aboard the 12-hour flight from Rio de Janeiro to Rome was a personal
decision by Francis and that aides at one point had counseled him against it.
Not since John Paul II, prior to the debilitating effects of his
illness, has a pope engaged in such a free-wheeling and spontaneous exchange
with the press. Francis spoke in Italian and Spanish, the languages in which
his comfort level is the greatest.
There’s more to NCR than what you read online. Preview our Spirituality special section from the
July 19 edition.
Among other points, Pope Francis:
·
Replied when asked about the Vatican's alleged "gay
lobby" that while a lobby might be an issue, he doesn't have any problem
with the inclination to homosexuality itself: "Who am I to judge them if
they're seeking the Lord in good faith?" he said.
·
Conceded he doesn't yet know what to do about the Vatican bank,
saying it could become an ethical bank, an assistance fund for good causes, or
be closed altogether.
·
Said he hasn't run into significant resistance to reform inside
the Vatican and joked that if there really is a "gay lobby," he
hasn't yet seen it stamped on anyone'sID cards.
·
Argued for the importance of women in the church, yet said John
Paul II "definitively ... closed the door" to women priests. He
called for a deeper "theology of women" beyond disputed
questions such as whether they can be lectors at Mass or head Vatican agencies
such as Caritas Internationalis.
·
Said a preliminary investigation had been conducted regarding
charges of immoral conduct against his hand-picked prelate for the Vatican
bank, Italian Msgr. Battista Ricca, and the investigation "found
nothing."
·
Said of Msgr. Nunzio Scarano, the former Vatican accountant who
was recently arrested for alleged involvement in a plot to smuggle $26 million
in cash into Italy, that he's not in jail "because he resembles the
Blessed Imelda" -- an Argentinian expression meaning he doesn't seem to be
any saint.
·
Suggested that the Synod of Bishops may be in for a shake-up in
the direction of both greater efficiency and greater collegiality.
The following are highlights of that Q&A with the pope; a full
transcript has been promised soon.
The Vatican bank
"I don't know yet how to fix the IOR [Institute for the Works
of Religion, better known as the Vatican bank] ... some say it should be a sort
of ethical bank, others that it should be an assistance fund, others want to
close it altogether. I've heard all these voices, but I don't know. I will
trust the work of the persons working on it, of the commission. [Note: Francis
has established a five-member commission to investigate the Vatican bank.] ...
What's important is transparency and honesty. It must be like this."
"The climate [in Rio de Janeiro] was spontaneous ... I could
be close to the people, greet them, embrace them, without armored cars. During
the entire time, there wasn't a single incident. I realize there's always a
risk of a crazy person, but having a bishop behind bulletproof glass is crazy,
too. Between the two, I prefer the first kind of craziness."
Cardinals and austerity
"Everyone has to live in their own way. The cardinals in the
Curia, at least the ones I know, don't live like wealthy people. They have
fairly modest apartments. But in a general sense, austerity is necessarily for
all those who work in the service of the church."
"There are saints in the Roman Curia, among the cardinals,
priests, religious, sisters and laity. They work hard, and also do things that
are often hidden. I know some who concern themselves with feeding the poor or
who give up their free time to work in a parish. As always, the ones who aren't
saints make the most noise ... a single tree falling makes a sound, but a whole
forest growing doesn't."
Resistance to reform
"If there's resistance [in the Vatican], I haven't seen it.
It's true that I haven't done a lot yet, but so far I've found helpful, loyal
people. I like it when someone says, 'I don't agree with you,' and I have found
that. People will say, 'I'll say what I think, but you do what you want.' I've
found that attitude in the Curia. That's better than those who say, 'That's
great, that's great,' but then say the opposite later ... maybe people like
that are there, but I haven't run into significant resistance."
Travels
"I can tell you that I'm going to Cagliari on Sept. 22, and
to Assisi on Oct. 4. I'd like to be able to join Patriarch Bartholomew I [of
Constantinople] in Jerusalem, who has invited me for the 50th anniversary of
Paul VI [referring to a historic meeting between Pope Paul and the Patriarch of
Constantinople in 1964].' The Israeli government has also invited me, and I
believe the Palestinian Authorities has done the same. We're thinking about it,
but I'm not sure yet. I think a trip to Asia can be done, especially because
it's a continent Benedict XVI did not get to, though he wanted to ... maybe Sri
Lanka, maybe the Philippines, I'm not sure."
"I wanted to go to Constantinople for the feast of St.
Andrew, but it wasn't possible."
The Charismatic Movement
"We talked about the statistics regarding Pentecostals with
the bishops on Brazil in a meeting yesterday. I'll tell you something about the
Charismatic Movement ... at the end of the '70s and in the '80s, I wasn't a big
fan. I used to say they confused the holy liturgy with a school of samba. I was
converted when I got to know them better and saw the good they do. In this
moment of the life of the church, the movements are necessary. They're a grace
of the Spirit, and in general, they do much good for the church. The
charismatic renewal movement isn't just about winning back a few Pentecostals,
but it serves the church and its renewal."
Women in the church
"A church without women would be like the apostolic college
without Mary. The Madonna is more important than the apostles, and the church
herself is feminine, the spouse of Christ and a mother."
"The role of women doesn't end just with being a mother and
with housework ... we don't yet have a truly deep theology of women in the
church. We talk about whether they can do this or that, can they be altar boys,
can they be lectors, about a woman as president of Caritas, but we don't have a
deep theology of women in the church."
"On the ordination of women, the church has spoken and said
no. John Paul II, in a definitive formulation, said that door is closed."
Benedict XVI
"I love Benedict XVI. He's a humble man of God and a man of
prayer. When he resigned, it was a great example ... some say to me, how is it
possible to have two popes in the Vatican? I heard a beautiful phrase that it's
like having your grandpa at home, someone who's wise, venerated, loved and
listened to. If I have a problem, something I don't understand, I can ask. On
the Vatican leaks scandal, for example, he explained everything with simplicity
and a spirit of service."
Divorced and remarried Catholics
"This theme always comes up ... I believe this is a time of
mercy, a change of epoch. It's a kairos moment
for mercy ... In terms of Communion for those who have divorced and remarried,
it has to be seen within the larger pastoral context of marriage. When the
council of eight cardinals meets Oct. 1-3, one of the things they'll consider
is how to move forward with the pastoral care of marriage. Also, just 15 days
ago or so, I met the secretary of the Synod of Bishops, and maybe it will also
focus on the pastoral care of marriage. It's complicated."
The Jesuits
"The Jesuits have a vow to obey the pope, but if the pope is
a Jesuit, maybe he should have a vow to obey the superior general ... I feel
like I'm still a Jesuit in terms of my spirituality, what I have in my heart.
In three days, I'll go to celebrate the feast of St. Ignatius. Also, I think
like a Jesuit."
John Paul II/John XXIII
"John XXIII was the figure of a county priest who loves all
of his faithful and knows how to take care of them. He was a great bishop, and
also a great nuncio. When he was in Turkey, he was responsible for so many
false baptisms in order to save Jews ... he was courageous. He had a great
sense of humor and a great holiness. Some in the Vatican didn't like him, and
when he would come in they would make him wait, but he would always pray his
rosary or read his breviary. He truly cared about the poor ... once when
Casaroli [the cardinal Secretary of State] returned from a mission in Eastern
Europe, he reported to the pope, who asked him if he was still working with
school kids. When he said yes, John XXIII told him never to abandon them. He
called the council, and was extremely docile to the call of God."
"John Paul II was a great missionary of the church. He
carried the Gospel everywhere. ... How many trips did he make? He felt the need
to carry the words of the Lord, like St. Paul. He was great. Putting both
together is a message to the church, that both were extremely good. Causes for
both Paul VI and for Papa Luciani [John Paul I] are also underway."
The date
"Dec. 8 had been talked about as the date [for the
canonizations], but the problem is all the people who will want to come from
Poland, not all of whom can fly. Many will take buses, and by December the
roads are iced. We have to rethink the date. I've talked about it to Cardinal
[Stanislaw] Dziwisz [of Krakow, Poland], who gave me a couple of possibilities.
One is the feast of Christ the King this year [late November], and the other is
the feast of Divine Mercy next year [shortly after Easter]. I have to talk to
Cardinal [Angelo] Amato [prefect of the Congregation for the Causes of Saints]
about it."
The Ricca case
"I did what canon law requires, which is to conduct a
preliminary investigation. We didn't find anything to confirm the things he was
accused of, there was nothing. ... I'd like to add that many times we seem to
seek out the sins of somebody's youth and publish them. We're not talking about
crimes, which are something else. The abuse of minors, for instance, is a crime.
But one can sin and then convert, and the Lord both forgives and forgets. We
don't have the right to refuse to forget ... it's dangerous. The theology of
sin is important. St. Peter committed one of the greatest sins, denying Christ,
and yet they made him pope. Think about that."
Gay lobby
"There's a lot of talk about the gay lobby, but I've never
seen it on the Vatican ID card."
"When I meet a gay person, I have to distinguish between
their being gay and being part of a lobby. If they accept the Lord and have
goodwill, who am I to judge them? They shouldn't be marginalized. The tendency
[to homosexuality] is not the problem ... they're our brothers."
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