NCR
Today, 4/2/2013
If that’s the profile, few people fit it better than Fr. Pedro Brunori, a
priest of Opus Dei who currently works as a hospital and university chaplain
outside Buenos Aires ,
and who previously put in eight years in Rome
as director of the Vatican Information Service.
Brunori sat down April 2 for an interview with NCR. (It was above and
beyond the call of duty, given that April 2 is a national holiday in Argentina
commemorating the fallen in the 1982 Falklands War, known here as the Guerra
de las Malvinas.)
According to Brunori, Francis is well positioned to deliver a reform of
the Vatican bureaucracy for four reasons:
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He’s got a good eye for talent, and is able to delegate
responsibility without surrendering ultimate accountability for making
decisions.
-
He doesn’t just appoint ‘yes men,’ but people who often
have different ideas from his own, as long as they’ve got the right skills set
to do the job.
-
He makes sure that aides have direct personal
communication with the boss, even picking up the phone and calling them
directly to talk through important matters.
-
His personality is such that a palpable simplification
of structures and procedures will happen almost automatically.
Brunori, 62, was born in Buenos
Aires . In addition to Francis’ profile as a
governor, he discussed the future pope’s relationship with liberation theology,
his attitude toward the laity, his preference for handling things quietly
rather than making a lot of noise, and the transformation that seems to have
come over Bergoglio as pope – from an archbishop known in Argentina for being a
bit stiff and reserved on the public stage, to the smiling and charismatic
“pastor of the world.”
Brunori also expressed the view that over time, the greatest resistance to
Francis inside the church is likely to come from the right rather than the
left. Some conservatives, he said, may “misunderstand” the pope’s penchant for
simplification as stripping away some of the essentials of the faith.
The interview with Brunori took place in Italian. The following is an NCR
translation of extracts from the conversation.
* * *
What was Cardinal Bergoglio’s attitude toward liberation theology?
He always saw the people who live in the slums from a different point of
view. His interest wasn’t in resolving structural problems with the economy,
but helping these people address the concrete problems of their lives. It was a
pastoral perspective. He wasn’t trying to promote a particular theology, but to
help people grow in their personal dignity. For example, when he visited an
Opus Dei school in a poor area of Buenos
Aires , his interest was in how the church can promote
human development through education. That school also helps people develop in
the faith by getting married in the church, participating in the sacraments,
and so on, and he saw that as promoting their development too. He wanted to
enhance the human level of these people, of their families.
One can certainly understand the great injustices that gave rise to
liberation theology, but sometimes it was missing the dimension of personal
charity, of concern for the concrete person in front of you. That’s the sense
in which I think the pope tried to orient the pastoral work in the slums of Buenos Aires . His idea
was that every single one of those people ought to interest the church,
equally. He actually walked in these places. I remember one time he was in the
slums and one of the priests who works there said to him, joking, ‘They know
you better than me!’ He was always ready to serve, because he had a great
commitment to pastoral work.
What do you think Pope Francis can contribute to the church today?
He’s always talked a lot about the danger of a self-referential church.
It’s real, and the church has to get out into the streets. In Latin
America we’ve seen a great growth of the sects, and it’s often
because they offer people a kind of welcome that we just don’t provide. We have
to open up. That’s the great impulse I think Francis can give to the church.
What were his other primary concerns as archbishop?
One great emphasis was to discover the importance of the laity. He spoke
about the importance of the laity a great deal, though without confusing laity
with priests. He didn’t want to ‘clericalize’ the laity. His primary interest
wasn’t in having more lay ministers of communion, or things like that. He wanted
everyone in their proper place, doing the things that pertained to their area.
I worked in Buenos Aires for twelve years, and I saw [Bergoglio] in a variety
of settings … not just liturgical ceremonies, but working meetings and so on,
and this was something he talked about all the time.
What else can you say about his leadership style?
I’ve always been struck by his preference for silence. When he was here,
he didn’t talk very much. He doesn’t like to spread things around. He didn’t
really talk much with journalists, almost never. He’s very respectful of
persons, so when something happened he dealt with the people involved directly.
He doesn’t see the church as a business firm, and he doesn’t see concrete human
situations as marketing opportunities. He tended to be a silent leader, very
respectful of others. When he had to make decisions, he would do it, but in a
quiet way that respected the others involved in the situation.
Does he have a good eye for talent?
He knows how to delegate, which is linked to a tremendous capacity to
choose the right people for the job. He chooses people who are often very
different among themselves, but they’re the right people for the tasks he
entrusts to them. Once he puts them into their roles, he delegates pretty much
everything to them. He makes the ultimate decisions, but it’s these others who
prepare them. He says ‘yes’ because he trusts them. He gives them some broad
direction, knowing full well what kind of people they are, and they move in the
direction he’s set.
Can you give an example of his willingness to delegate?
For the most part, he doesn’t sign the letters in which decisions are
communicated. I can say that in the years since I’ve been back, in various
situations – marriage cases, situations involving priests, and so on – I’ve
almost never seen a letter with his signature. The people he’s put into
positions sign them. He assumes the responsibility, but does it by delegating
to others.
He has the same style in other areas. When it comes to confirmations, for
example, he can’t possibly do them all, so he delegates amply … not just to his
auxiliary bishops and vicars, but other worthy priests who can do it very well.
He always does it with his eyes open, because he’s a very good supervisor. He
pays attention, but he also trusts the people to whom he delegates
responsibility.
What kind of people does he appoint to key jobs?
These are people with different ideas, different ways of seeing reality,
but they’re the right people for the role he gives them. Some of them don’t actually
think the same way he does about many things. For instance, in some ways he’d
like to return to the origins of Christianity, getting rid of many things that
have developed over time. Some of the people who worked for him here don’t
think like that, they believe these historical developments still have value.
He’s not bothered by that, because they’re the right people for the work he
needs them to do.
Is he also capable of getting rid of people if they don’t work
out?
Yes, but with such silence and delicacy that almost no one realizes it.
He’s like John Paul II in that way. He never eliminated people in full public
view, and usually very few even realized something was happening. I remember
that when I was working in the Vatican ,
there was someone who had done something seriously wrong. [John Paul] called
him in and said, ‘You’ve made a serious mistake,’ and he took the appropriate
measures. But do you know how long that person stayed in the job? Two more
years! The idea was to take time to prepare a quiet exit. Bergoglio is like
that.
How does he avoid becoming isolated?
The people who work for him feel like they’re in a close personal
relationship with him. For instance, when his aides sent him a note about some
problem or decision that had to be made, they were told to put their phone
number on the document. Quite often, he’d pick up the phone and call them. It
happened all the time, so much so that after a while nobody was surprised by
it. He had a very direct style of doing things, without intermediaries.
Would you expect him to have more direct contact with the heads of
dicasteries?
Yes, totally.
Everyone says the Roman Curia needs reform. Do you believe Francis
will be a reforming pope?
Yes, certainly. With the humility and simplicity with which he carries
himself, almost by themselves many of the structures surrounding the papacy
will fall. His way of carrying himself simply won’t permit an overly complex,
byzantine way of doing business. These structures will fall away, by
necessity … they can’t help but collapse with this pope.
These may seem like small things, but they add up. For instance, the other
day an Italian friend of mine had the chance to greet the pope. He had met him
for the first time as a cardinal and called him ‘Your Eminence.’ Bergoglio had
replied, ‘No, call me Giorgio.’ This time, my friend said to him, ‘Your
Holiness, what do you want me to call you now?’ He said, ‘What do you suppose
Peter called John? I’m sure he called him John.’ This simplicity has to have
internal consequences [in the curia], at many levels. The structures as they
presently exist won’t endure if he continues to be himself.
In the pre-conclave period, cardinals said they wanted three basic
reforms in the curia: greater transparency, greater accountability, and greater
efficiency. Do you think Francis will deliver reform in that sense?
That’s a hard question, but I believe so. However, he won’t want to set
off earthquakes. He’s never wanted to distract the attention of the faithful or
put obstacles in the path of the normal pastoral life of the church. None of
the measures he’ll take will get in the way of delivering good pastoral care to
the faithful. He’ll take the necessary steps, or he’ll delegate them to the
right people, but he won’t cause tumult.
Although Bergoglio never worked in the Vatican, he has been a
member of various offices – the Congregation for Divine Worship and the
Discipline of the Sacraments, the Congregation for the Clergy, the Congregation
for Institutes of Consecrated Life and Societies of Apostolic Life, the
Pontifical Council for the Family, and the Pontifical Commission for Latin
America. Is that an advantage?
That’s no small thing. As you know, quite often the members of these
offices don’t actually come to meetings, and when they do come, they don’t
really participate. He came, and he participated. When he became a cardinal, he
never focused on the honor of the office, but he took it very seriously in the
sense of being a member of the ‘senate’ of the church. He wanted to assist the
church with his experience, and he came to the meetings to do precisely that.
He’s got the kind of perception that it didn’t take him long to see what was
really going on. He got a sense of things almost immediately.
When you see the former Cardinal Bergoglio now as Pope Francis,
what strikes you about him?
One thing is that in public settings in Argentina he could often come off
as a bit dry, reserved, even a little rigid, but you can see him now … it’s
almost like he’s a different person. He seems ten years younger! It’s as if
he’s received a force that he didn’t have before, something almost
supernatural.
What’s something you know about Bergoglio that most people don’t?
Very quietly, he always tries to respond when other churches need
something from him. For instance, he’s sent priests from Buenos Aires to various parts of Argentina
because they didn’t have enough … he’s sent priests to Patagonia ,
to Luján, and to the north, for example in Salta . One of them in the north is very well
know, because there are mountain regions where to move up and down usually
means taking a donkey and eating up the better part of two days. This priest
became famous for taking a hang glider! One time he crashed on a rock and took
a nasty injury to his leg. He’s also a priest of Buenos Aires . [Bergoglio] also sent economic
help, especially to the northwest of Argentina , to the poorest areas.
He’s got a real concern for others, but he never publicizes it.
More than once, someone would call him up and say, ‘I’m sick, I need a
priest to say Mass for me.” He’d tell them not to worry, I’ll take care of it,
and he’d go to say the Mass himself. Sometimes he’d bring another priest, while
he heard confessions. For him, confession is about the mercy of God. There are
a lot of parishes in Buenos Aires ,
and they sometimes don’t have enough priests to hear confessions. Quite often,
he would go and do it himself, while a priest celebrated the Mass. He would also go to hear
confessions in the slums.
Did you ever see that need to maintain pastoral contact get in the
way of his administrative responsibilities?
No, because his capacity to delegate freed him up. I believe he’ll do the
same thing as pope, although he’ll follow everything closely. His eyes don’t
miss anything, and he realizes very quickly what’s going on. He’s very
perspicacious.
Are you worried for him now that he's pope?
For him, no. I am a little worried that some people may misunderstand him.
When you strip away some things from the church, which has to be done, some
people may think you’re stripping away things that come from the Lord and that
shouldn’t be removed. That’s what worries me. For example, he does tend to
simplify the liturgy, but always maintaining what’s essential. I worry that
somebody might think he’s undercutting something fundamental. That could
happen, and not just with the liturgy.
When he talks about the primacy of charity, for instance, that’s beautiful
because it’s true, but somebody might get him wrong. They might think he’s
talking about the primacy of charity instead of the primacy of
the magisterium, which he’s not. That’s the risk. He’s not telling lies,
he’s trying to say things that will help bring people together. Someone,
however, could misunderstand him.
You think it’s more likely this pope will run into resistance from
the right rather than the left?
Yes, clearly. I worry that they may think his stripping away means
eliminating something of the essence of the church.
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